From: Charles Dirksen Subject: ATTN: INFO FOR NEW TRADERS Date: 28 Mar 1997 22:58:09 GMT THE FOLLOWING ARE POSTS THAT NEW TRADERS MAY FIND HELPFUL. THE FOLLOWING IS ALL PRETTY MUCH TWO CENTS, BUT MUCH OF IT JIVES WITH MANY IN THE PHISH.NET COMMUNITY. IF YOU WANT TO USE THIS STUFF ON YOUR WEB PAGE, FEEL FREE TO DO SO, BUT I'D PREFER IT IF YOU CREDIT ME UNLESS YOU CHANGE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF IT. ************************************************ ************************************************ HOT TO GET TAPES OF SHOWS FROM PEOPLE When requesting Phish tapes from people, especially in competitive situations (when there are many people responding to a tape offer), it has been my experience that the following ideas are helpful. 1) Offer to dub for others (and be serious about it). Even the greatest tape request is lacking and might be rejected if this KEY element is missing. And if you can't dub it for other people, BE HONEST ABOUT IT, because you might get the tapes as a result. 2) Tell a story, perhaps one that is amusing, about why you want a certain tape/show. Preferably one worth telling and worth hearing. Even if it is utter bullshit. Be sure to include a ;^) at the end if indeed it is fraudulent, otherwise, the person to whom you are requesting a tape may believe -- perhaps unwiiiiisely -- that you are trying to cleverly bullshit him or her. Some of the best tape requests I've read are ones discussing the requestor's reasons for wanting a show ("I was there and BLAH BLAH BLAH happened.."). 3) Afford the person from whom you are requesting a dub demi-God status AT MOST, IF AT ALL. Treating them like Icculus may prove offensive, which is why demi-God admiration may be more effective. Especially keep in mind that everyone can worship and praise, but not everyone can craft a creative story or email. Usually the most excellent requests contain NO worship and praise, except of the show being requested. 4) Perhaps, and this is a big PERHAPS, offer stuff to the person from whom you are requesting tapes. Anything except $. Even if it is the lint from the floor of your room (but preferably items that are worth a little more, like tape labels, a sticker, a scale from an 83 pound black drum fish, a weird postcard, incense, NYE ping pong balls, Halloween candy, mysterious keys, a bizarre token, that lame t-shirt you never wear anymore, a ludicrously lame poster... anything that might set your request apart from another, but not something which might be construed as a bribe (id est, an item with serious cash value), since trying to bribe someone is usually automatic disqualification at best, and public flamehendge at worst. (and) 5) Remember to say 'please', and 'thank you,' and be kind to those less fortunate than yourself... (or not) The success of the above methods depends entirely upon the acumen of those competing against you for tapes and, of course, the disposition of the person making a given tape offer when they read the requests responsive to their initial post. Some people enjoy it when they receive messages that say "Hey, I'd really like to get [name of show] from you. Here's my tapelist. Please respond. [insert tape list]." Personally, I find other people's tape lists that have fewer than 600 hours amusing, but I nevertheless usually don't trade with them, since I'm an arrogant snob and have heard most of the material in circulation anyway. I usually respond to requests that have at least some original content, though, EVEN IF a tape list is attached. Best of luck in All Things, especially future requests for Phish tapes, charlie dirksen p.s. you should NEVER have to send two blanks to get one dubbed.. if some COMPLETE JACKASS tries to rip you off in this manner, you should post a public message to the net about it (assuming the COMPLETE JACKASS hasn't already announced to the net that he wants two blanks for every one he dubs). People will dub for you for cost. Don't be fooled by the assholes out there. And when someone offers to dub for you, if you don't recognize their name from the net, and you question their reliability, getting (and using) a phone number is enormously recommended. Communication. Communication. Communication... Trading with people on phishnet has and will work out if you just communicate with your prospective trading partner. ***************************** ***************************** THESE ARE SAMPLE INSTRUCTIONS FOR SENDING BLANKS/POSTAGE TO SOMEONE 1) please send the proper length of Type II or higher quality blanks; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU SEND ME ADDITIONAL BLANKS "as a gift" (I don't accept blanks as gifts very well); just send blanks for the particular show you requested; if I recommended that you send high quality blanks for something (i.e., XL2S or metals), you probably should send such blanks if you are truly quality conscious; 2) include in the package a mailing _LABEL_ (or separate piece of paper), not a mailer, but a LABEL, that has your return address _neatly_ on it; I will use this label to send the tapes back to you, so if it is illegible, you assume the risk; if, however, you include a self-addressed stamped bubble mailer for return delivery of the tapes, as I would prefer (but which is NOT required), you clearly do not need to also include a separate label with your address; 3) send the tapes with or without cases in a REASONABLY CLEAN and HARDLY USED IF USED AT ALL package that may be EASILY re-used by me to send you your tapes back (i.e., send a good sized PADDED package that COMFORTABLY fits the blanks you are sending, don't fill the package full of staples, DO NOT SEND A @&$%@$# POSTAL WRAPPED BOX!!, don't seal it so seriously that I have to rip the damn thing to pieces to get at the blanks, don't send a mailer that is falling apart and has stuffing coming out of it, etc.); this is VERY IMPORTANT; I will not go buy a new mailer just to send you your tapes back (I will use duct tape and make a mess of the package, if need be); I really like to see BUBBLE mailers and not LINT-FILLED MANILA mailers, since the latter tend to explode, which gets lint over everything (including the heads of my tape deck, which pisses me off); if you send me a really shitty mailer that is falling apart, I might wait until the last minute to dub for you, irrespective of postmark; however, if you do what some people do, which is include a self-addressed stamped bubble mailer inside of a larger bubble mailer, I will praise you along with Icculus and kiss the sky; 4) include a NOTE or letter with the package, which *NEATLY* specifies the show you want, and what your NET ADDRESS is; if your package is essentially identical to others' received on the same date (which is practically guaranteed), and you actually took the time to write me a pleasant letter, I will take the time to dub your blanks ahead of others' (I do this all the time.. if people send me a DEMAND for the tapes and treat me like an impersonal machine, they can wait longer than those who took care that I don't feel like their god damn slave... if the "note" is particularly gross, I will throw their package into the corner of my room in disgust and dub it 'Whenever'); 5) include first class return postage IN STAMPS, and be sure to check with the post office about the amount; if you don't want to deal with this, you are welcome to send me 3 dollars in stamps or cash for priority mail return (3 dollars will cover up to 10 tapes with cases); please, though, if using first class postage, ASK YOUR POSTMASTER and don't assume what the proper postage is, because it may be more, and if I have to front you postage, I bump you waaaaay back in the dubbing queue regardless of your postmark; if you send book rate or third class postage, I might not dub for you until the millenium, given your obvious indifference to the speed at which you get your tapes back (or, for that matter, indifference to whether you get them back at all); you may send cash if you have to, but Don't if you have access to stamps (NO checks *ever*!!); ALSO, if you are in **Canada**, you MUST include the proper postage in US stamps or USD (about 3 bucks for 3 tapes with cases).. I don't want any &@%#*^@% Canadian $; AND DO NOT SEND POSTAL METER STRIPS FOR RETURN POSTAGE!!! THESE ARE ILLEGAL FOR RETURN POSTAGE AND WILL PISS ME OFF EXTRAORDINARILY; 6) PLEASE DO NOT send me anything postmarked after March 28, and Do not, under any circumstances, grovel for an extension (I'm dubbing for a lot of people in this offer, and don't want to be dubbing tapes pursuant to this offer in May); this offer has to be closed at some point (and the return address you send me should be current through the second week of May; please include an address for you for June if, due to some Unfortunate Circumstance, I can't dub your tapes until late May (!)). Please, I beg you, follow the instructions. These directions are easy. Also, I will be dubbing for a lot of people pursuant to this offer. Please do me a favor and don't write me asking when your tapes will be done. Assume that you will have your tapes back within four weeks from postmark. Feel free to email me, however, after four weeks, if you still don't have your tapes. Please share the Groove! I'd really like to see more public tape offers of Fall 1996 shows! That's the best way to "pay me back" if you feel like doing that. Sure, spreading tapes will lead to more aphishionados, to more people trying to acquire tickets, but I don't care. The members of Phish deserve the fiscal rewards that flow from such a following!! They are all GREAT people. Really! It is my pleasure to dub for you, it REALLY is, even if the above seems bitter and annoyed in places, not to mention rude. have fun, charlie p.s. puuuuhhhhllleeazze follow the above directions! ***************************** ***************************** (the following comments basically summarize MAJORITY PREFERENCES based on responses to the trading survey ... PLEASE follow up with additional comments as you see fit, preferably making light of whether your beliefs are in the "majority" or "minority" of traders' views in your experience) Thanks again to all 100 or so of you who responded to the Survey on Tape Trading. Without question, ***HONESTY*** is what people value most when trading. Unfortunately, there are plenty of lazy (and dishonest) "traders" out there. If the quality of your tapes suck, then say so. If you are afraid the trade won't work out, you might be able to send blanks/postage. Don't be a wuss about it. Just be honest. If the person you are dealing with seems remarkably insincere, ignorant, arrogant and/or untrustworthy, THEN ONLY DO A SMALL TRADE and get a phone number. OR WALK AWAY. If you get screwed on a large trade with a stranger whom you never called, it is your own damn fault for being so naive. Many people have yet to be screwed in a trade (perhaps most?). If the situation even vaguely seems precarious, don't trade with the person. Someone else will come along. COMMUNICATION is clearly imperative. Call the person if s/he can't spell and/or writes like a moron. You should be wary of how YOU come across in email to possible trading partners as well. If you get the feeling that the other person doesn't really care, then IGNORE HIM OR HER and MOVE ON. It could be someone looking to rip you off. You may want to initiate a trade with a stranger by explaining that you've been ripped off, and are concerned about certain things. If the potential trader reacts by saying things like "Well I'm not giving you my home phone number" and "Don't be such an asshole, you can trust me" then blow off the person immediately. That's just _MY_ advice. They should have sympathy for the fact that you've been ripped off in trades, and they should be reassuring. If they aren't, then ignore them. Just walk away and tell the person to "Forget it." You simply do not have to put up with crap from other people. There are others out there with the tapes that you want who share your trading practices. Don't put up with assholes, and hey, if think you are being dicked around, then flame the guy publicly. Many people disagree with me here, but the net is a resource. Use it. But more importantly, use your judgment. If you didn't communicate with the person properly, you deserved to be screwed, in my opinion. Basic preferences MOST (not all) people have: -- BE HONEST ABOUT EVERYTHING, including your tape deck models; -- COMMUNICATE, especially about timing issues, CUTS AND DROPOUTS AND STATIC AND FLAWS ON THE TAPES, type of tape to use, priority or first class mail, cases/j-cards, whatever; if you don't communicate well with your trading partner, you deserve to be disappointed; -- at least Type II tapes _period_; -- no dolby, no equalization, no auto-reverse, no high-speed dubbing; -- dub straight from source deck to recording deck with nothing in the way (i.e., OUT of source deck IN to recording deck); -- PROVIDE SOURCE, GEN AND MIC INFO WHEN KNOWN. ONLY NOVICES DON'T; -- type or neatly handwrite setlists, and be sure to note proper segues, fillers, cuts/dropouts/static/flaws as best you can (obviously no one is perfect at this); do not label the actual tapes -- let the person getting the tapes use their own handwriting to label _their_ copies; if you cannot computer-generate labels, it is recommended to write them on post-it notes or some other form that can comfortably be stuck into the case with the tape; -- include a NOTE w/tapes, email the person when you receive the tapes, keep up the communication, send a thank-you or a HEY THESE TAPES SUCK message, etc. -- just act like you give a shit; -- use bubble mailers; the brown manila lint-filled ones tend to explode and get lint all over the tapes, which leads to upset tape decks and heads (not to mention a messy room); -- don't seal the package with more than like 3-5 staples, or you will look like a COMPLETE MORON; avoid littering packages with too many staples and tape -- you look like an idiot (even to the USPS!); [Editor's Note: Never write "Fragile" on a package of tapes. Generally, postal employees don't like to be told how to perform their jobs. "Fragile" translates into "Look here you incompetent postal employee, be careful with my fuckin' package!," which often leads, posthaste, to a damaged or misplaced package.] *** IN SHORT, DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU *** With respect to whether to send cases and j-cards, some people are strongly against and others are strongly for. There is certainly not unanimity about it, but most people who responded to the survey do send cases and j-cards. I think it is better to be safe and have cases break than the cassettes themselves, but that is just my opinion. Communicate and compromise. If you really care about the trade, you will compromise. I will admit that in the hundreds of tapes that I've sent out and received without cases, only about three or four actual cassettes broke. I've had a lot more cases break on me, of course, but I've also sent out several thousand more tapes with cases than without them. Just talk about it with your trading partner. Also, there isn't concensus about filler. Most people are against Side A filler, I'm certain (which is why I sometimes put it there, i.e., to be a jerk; do you have 4/18/90 Jaegermeister on side A of your 10/31/96-3? that's my fault originally). But communicate about it with your potential trading partner if it means something to you. I honestly couldn't care less about filler. It has probably pissed me off more times than it has pleased me. Sometimes it has thrilled me, but other times it has outraged me. Tough call. Talk about it with your trading partner. Blanks and postage is a whole different ballgame, and you are NOT "trading" with someone when they dub for you for "B/P". I feel qualified to discuss blanks/postage arrangements, since I've dubbed for at least 300 different people for blanks/postage over the last three years. I've traded with significantly fewer people than that, of course, and for good reason (I like to stick with reliable people, and only make exceptions for exceptional lists from experienced traders who refrain from employing the word "dude" in email). I'll post about B/P in a separate message, and people should follow up as they deem appropriate. May Icculus Bless Your Future Trades, KingMoron420 ***************************** ***************************** HERE WE GO AGAIN... This is a portion of the tapelist of someone who wants to be taken seriously as an analog trader: Date City and/or Venue Gen Length Sets Grade Mics/History [Name of Band] 12/06/96 Las Vegas DAUD-1 270 123 A Schoeps MK4's 12/28/96 Phili Spectrum AUD-1 200 1,2 A- NAK 300 'guns 12/29/96 Phili Spectrum DAUD-1 180 1,2 A- AKG 463's 12/30/96 Fleet Center DAUD-1 180 1,2 A- AKG 463's 12/31/96 Fleet Center DFM-1 270 123 A FM>DATMaster>a AUD-1 = analog master made at show (an AUD0) > analog cassette DAUD-1 = DAT audience master or clone > analog cassette DFM-1 = FM > DAT > analog cassette SBD-1 = analog master sbd made at show > analog cassette DSBD-1 = Dat Soundboard > analog cassette cDSBD-1 = analog cassette master soundboard > DAT > analog cass. The only analog that can be "zero generation" is an analog master made at a show, in my opinion. It is Truly a Master. So, unless mics>analog deck (or mics>preamp>DAT deck>analog deck or something similar at the show..), then the analog is made from a parent: the parent being 'the master,' the parent creating a "generation"... An analog made from a parent analog recording is a member of the next, subsequent generation to the parent's gen (parent analog > analog of subsequent generation). Not very difficult. It gets more tricky for many folks when, for example, you make an analog from a CD or a DAT. You put the music from the DAT or CD onto a new media -- let's say an analog tape -- and most people therefore consider the recording on the new media a "master." It *IS* a "master" in that it is the master of the copies it generates. However, whenever an analog tape is made, PERIOD, even at a show, HISS is generated. It _must_ be generated. Also, the REAL "master" in the aforementioned example, if you look carefully, is the DAT or CD. The analog recording is simply an analog copy of The Real Master. Sure, the CD>A or D>A is the "master" of the analog line, if that analog is used to make more analogs (D>A>A etc.). But using this same logic, a 4th generation analog is the "master" of the 5th generation analogs it makes, and so it too would qualify as simply "a master." A CD>A or D>A is not "zero generation" or In Itself a True Master -- it is rather the child of a parent CD or DAT respectively. It is the FIRST in hopefully a long line of analog generations. KAPISCH? In my opinion, the label "master" ("0") should really be reserved for THE MASTER, if you know what I mean (as in, the DAT master made at a show, or the mics > analog deck recording that generates a "master analog," or the CD that you use to make an analog..). An analog master is made at the show (AUD-0). A DAT>analog (DAUD-1) creates a first generation analog, the first generation off of the DAT parent clone or true DAT master. This analog in turn creates second generation analogs (DAUD-2), which in turn create the 3rd generation, etc. I think this is the soundest way to label tapes, and I no longer trade with people with "zero generation" analogs on their lists (i.e., DAUD-0 or AUD-0), _UNLESS_ those labels refer to analog masters made at the show. WHY ALL THIS ANAL-RETENTIVITY!?!? WHO THE FUCK CARES!? GET A LIFE YOU ARROGANT MEGAMOUTH BASTARD!!!! Well, there is *generally* and *usually* *in my experience* a HUUUUGE quality difference, in most cases, between AUD-0 (analog masters and their progeny, AUD-1, AUD-2, etc.) and DAUD-1 tapes (D>A recordings and their analog progeny). Music on or from analog masters tends to have cuts at the end of side A, because of the necessity of The Flip (does your [Insert Song Here] cut to side B? Your copy is probably from an analog master originally, or a lazy D>A taper.. ;). There is often at least a couple seconds of music cut on the Flip (Gordon Sharpless and Dean Budnick semi-former-analog-tapers-extraordinaire excepted, of course). Also, analog masters TEND to have a more hollow, somewhat tinny quality or "feel' to them than analogs from digital masters made after the show on home decks OR EVEN made using portables in the hotel room (in my experience). So, if you have a tape with a [Insert Song Here] that cuts viciously to side B with several seconds of music cut, there is a pretty strong, though NOT definite, likelihood that your copy is from an analog master of the show (originally). Of course, I have receieved D>A tapes from DAT tapers who figured they would cut the music (without loss) to save room on side B for filler, or, more likely, because they knew I wouldn't care about a cut in the middle of Strange Design or Space or something. ;) The first generation of analog tapes dubbed from a DAT clone or master are "first generation," i.e., DAUD-1 or DSBD-1 tapes, as I see it. Also, analogs made from CDs should be CD-1 based on the same reasoning (the CD is the "master," and a copy of it on analog, which necessarily requires some hiss, is a generation from the true CD master). Again, the analog that is created is in a sense a "master" itself because it is the leader of a new line of possible analog progeny. But AGAIN, it makes more sense to reserve the 'master' ("0") label for solely analog masters, since the TRUE ANALOG MASTER -- made at a show, and properly labeled AUD-0 imo -- is usually markedly different in quality from a DAUD-1, or DAT > analog, made after a show by a generous DAT taper. Of course, what if the analog master made at the show is patched out of a DAT deck with a strong preamp that biases the sound? DAUD-0? Naw. I'd just note it on your list (and yes, I've heard mics > analogmaster and mics>preamp>dat>analogmaster and the analog master in the latter case was noticeably more well-rounded, rich and full-sounding than the somewhat tinny mics>analogmaster recording -- a lot more, actually). The above is based on many years of experience as well as many discussions with audiophiles, tape hobbyists and people who make A LIVING dubbing tapes for other people. "Zero generation" analogs are analog masters, plain and simple (AUD-0). There is really, and should be, no such thing as a DAUD-0. The confusion occurs because people like to say "But hey, when I make an analog tape off of a DAT, that analog is the "master" of the analog line." This is certainly true, but again, based on this reasoning, the AUD4 is the master of the AUD5, and so on, and well, "master" title should be reserved for the DAT in this case. The DAT is the true master of that line of tapes, not an analog. And only analog masters made at a show deserve "0" on the tapelist. Given dropouts and so forth, I hear that a lot of DAT tapers and traders now routinely note on their lists what "generation" clone they have of a given show, or whether they have a master or "0" DAT of the show (made by them or a buddy at the show). There isn't "generational loss" with digital technology, of course, but there is obviously a greater likelihood that a D>D>D>D>D>D>D>D>D will have MORE ERRORS than a D>D (this is NOT CERTAIN, only more likely). Obviously, it is very possible that a D>D could have tons more errors than a D>D>D>D>D>D. I'm talking likelihood. ANYWAY.. PARTICULARLY in light of the difference (often HUUUGE difference) between analog masters made at the show and DAT > analogs made in the hotel room or on your awesome home decks, I respectfully re-submit that people label D>A tapes made after the show DAUD-1 and analog master tapes AUD-0. I immediately distrust anyone with DAUD-0 tapes on their list (but that is just me, admittedly.. I also immediately distrust lists without gen & source information). Yours in obsessive-compulsive anal-retentivity, two cents charlie THAT'S TWO CENTS, remember.. p.s. Capisci is spelled Capisci, not "Kapisch." (?right?)